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Jonan Scheffler: Hello and welcome to Polyglot, proudly brought to you by New Relic's developer relations team, The Relicans. Polyglot is about software design. It's about looking beyond languages to the patterns and methods that we as developers use to do our best work. You can join us every week to hear from developers who have stories to share about what has worked for them and may have some opinions about how best to write quality software. We may not always agree, but we are certainly going to have fun, and we will always do our best to level up together. You can find the show notes for this episode and all of The Relicans podcasts on developer.newrelic.com/podcasts. Thank you so much for joining us. Enjoy the show.
Ali: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Polyglot podcast. This is Ali. I'm @endingwithali on everything, including Minecraft, so go follow me on Twitter today. We're here with Jay Gordon. So if you want to take a second to just introduce yourself?
Jay: Hey. My name is Jay Gordon. I am a Cloud Advocate at Microsoft working on Azure, Azure Fundamentals DevOps. And I happen to live in the lovely, beautiful, and number one place in the world, New York City. So yeah, that’s me.
Ali: We're pretty close. We’re almost neighbors.
Jay: Yeah, it's neat.
Ali: Two New York City girls.
Jay: Yeah, that's me. Look at me with my long, flowing hair. Of course, podcasting is a visual medium. So, of course, talking about my long, flowing hair actually, it's really not so flowing. It's not that long.
Ali: [laughs] Not yet, but you know. Okay. So let's just talk about why we're here. So you tweeted out, “If you don't put me on your podcast, you're a coward.”
Jay: A sign of cowardice, sure.
Ali: A sign of cowardice. And I was like, yeah, people need to put me on their podcast. And I said, “Oh if you don't put me on your podcast, I'll ship you a potato.” But it's very weird. And people have been like, “Why? Why would you do that?” I'm like, “Exactly. Why would you do that? What kind of person ships you a potato?”
Jay: I think it's sometimes just daring people. I do a lot of interviews, and so I end up interviewing a lot of people for the stuff I work on. Like, I do a weekly show on Microsoft’s Learn TV called Azure Fun Bytes, and a big portion of doing the show is interviewing people. And so last week, I had on Brendan Burns, one of the creators of Kubernetes. And so I'm so used to asking people questions that I feel like I never get many asked of me. And so I said, “Hey, not having me on your podcast is a sign of cowardice,” mostly just to be silly. But at the same time, it's just putting it out there that I want to talk to people, and I want to talk to the people who want to interview me. So if you're there, let me know.
Ali: Yeah, same with me. And so, I think your friend also responded about your podcast that you two host together.
Jay: Yeah, Kat Cosgrove. Her, myself, and Austin Parker, who's over at Lightstep we do a podcast together that has absolutely nothing to do with work, and it's one of the reasons why we do it so often together. We’ve been pretty consistent. And it's funny because it's just three people that met on Twitter that happened to work in the same section of the business and technology that have similar, ridiculous ideas about the world. And so it's fun to do that.
Ali: I absolutely love that. I've been trying to convince my internet friends…I want to create a podcast one day called “Me and My Internet Friends” because I have so many friends from the internet who I've never heard speak before. We have our podcast, and we don't say anything until we turn on the podcast, and then I hear their voice for the first time and react. And then I talk to my internet friends, and we talk about how we met because I basically grew up on the internet. My closest friends are from the internet.
Ali: My mom is like, “Oh, Ali, how did you meet this person?” I'm like, “I met them on Facebook.”
Jay: I think that that's more common now than it ever was. I met my wife on the internet back when it was weird to meet people on the internet. I met her back in I'd say it was 2001 online; maybe we first started talking in 2000. So that was a time where people really – Nowadays, you use your phone, and you get in a random stranger's car, and they take you wherever you want to go. Back in 2000, that was the number one thing people would tell you not to do. “Don't go and meet up with a stranger. Don't go on the internet and try to meet one of these people because it'll only turn out bad.” I think we've progressed to the point where being on the internet isn't something just for a certain section of people in our world. It's pretty much ubiquitous. It doesn't really matter what kind of lifestyle you lead or where you come from, your age group. So many people are chronically online, terminally online, all of those things that it's really hard to not want to become friends with some people.
Ali: Yeah. It's so cool that you met your wife through the internet.
Ali: And it's just an amazing story. Also, speaking of amazing stories, normally, I feel like most of the people I've interviewed on this podcast I have never met, I don't know them in person, but we've got a little bit of history.
Jay: Sure, yeah.
Ali: And I continue to forget. I remember, but I forget at the same time. You’d be like, “Oh yeah, we could talk about this thing that we did.” And I'm like, “What? Oh, yeah.” [chuckles]
Jay: Yeah, it's really easy in this world to have things completely go over your head and move on to the next thing and forget. But yeah, I think it was about 2018. I was working at MongoDB, and my Chief Marketing Officer at the time was interested in this technology that she had learned about called Jewelbots, which were these little IoT devices that look like watches that essentially are for programming little things. I forgot, it might've been in C or something like that, but they were these little watches. And it was out in Palo Alto, and I'm here in New York City, and so I needed to find somebody on the other side to be part of it. So myself, one of my coworkers at the time, Aydrian Howard, we went out to the West Coast and I kind of, if you will, drafted Chloe Condon, who's another member of our team at the Microsoft Azure Advocates. At the time, she was with, I think, Sentry. And I believe what she did is she reached out to you and said, “Hey, would you like to do this?” And what we had was almost like a birthday party for all these really young girls who started playing with these watches. And I remember we started at 8:00 in the morning, which was a whole thing in itself, and ended up working until 5:00 o’clock, and it was so great. We planned for 30 people, I remember that day, and we thought maybe 25 would show up. And it ended up being 32 little girls, and they all got these Jewelbots that we went ahead and we paid for. They didn't have to give us anything. And we put on what was like a little girl's birthday party, to be honest with you. It was really fun, and it was nice having you part of it.
Ali: And when he says, “Like a little girl's birthday party,” I was contacted by Chloe to get involved because she thought it would be fun to have someone to be able to put glitter on their faces safely or put makeup on them. And I was like, “I can get some makeup then.” [chuckles]
Jay: There's a blog post on the Jewelbots website, and I'll go ahead, and I'll send it to you so you can share it. One of the things that I love about it is there are pictures of you putting makeup on one of the little girls that showed up. And there was one photo that I really always thought represented the whole thing very well. There was this one younger girl, and her and her father had this giant MacBook pro. It seemed so big compared to her because she was just this tiny, young girl. She might have been seven or eight. And I couldn't get over it. And the photo of her on this page is just so representative of what she did. She was so intense about working on this, and she got really, really deep into this. And she and her dad were troubleshooting code. And so there's this really cool, intense picture of her staring into this MacBook Pro that just looks tremendous compared to her. And so I really enjoyed that. It was a great opportunity because I don't have kids, and I’m old at this point in the context of technology.
And so getting an opportunity to sometimes do things that help younger people learn, whether it's working with college students or, in this case, working with a bunch of grade school girls to have them take on something that typically would not be presented in this fashion, it wouldn't be something where you say, “Hey, we're going to get together, and we're going to have a really fun time. Girls, you're going to get hair spray paint in your hair or whatever that coloring for hair is with spray cans.” I remember Chloe outside spraying these kids, and we didn't have anything to cover them with. So we ended up just using tablecloths, plastic tablecloths and wrapping them around their necks so that it could be like, I don’t know what you call it, an apron or a bib or some sort of smock to keep it from getting all over their clothes. But by the end of the day, it was fun. I mean, there were movies playing for when the girls got burned out. We ordered food. And it also gave parents an opportunity to see that there are things in technology that can be educational that aren't just Fortnite and video games. Little things like this can really help people get that; I don’t know, that early spark on what they want to do. And I think that that was really the big goal was to give people that, especially these little girls, spark to learn something. So, I want to say thanks also to Sara Chipps. I think she might be at Stack Overflow. But Sara Chipps was one of the founders of Jewelbots, and she gave us a lot of help that day as far as how the code would be deployed, the different ways to connect it. There were all these little Arduino IoT devices, and we got it done.
Ali: Yeah. It was genuinely really awesome to see. I actually remember that little girl you were talking about because I think her father was also a developer.
Jay: I think so too.
Ali: And he really wanted to see her getting involved with coding, and I remember us just being like, “She's so small.” I'm sorry, but I absolutely love the way that you just described this event. Because to me, I remember waking up really early catching an Uber from Chloe's place down to Palo Alto and seeing this event go on. But at the time, I didn't think that one step forward of this is like a little girl's birthday party, which I guess feel free to steal our idea for your child's birthday party. But also, it was a really awesome and unique way to get more younger generations of women into STEM, which has been something I've been super passionate about recently, helping both in the tech industry and not in the tech industry get into STEM and find that mentorship.
Ali: And so we kind of talked about this a little bit, but you told me that you've been in cloud DevRel for a while now. You've got lots of experience, and I want to take this interview more towards a little bit of a mentorship session and just hear about your experiences and hear especially as DevRel becomes more and more of an industry, what was your process transitioning? What is your process? Like, as you've seen DevRel grow as a job, what do you hope more people getting into the industry know about diving into that?
Jay: Sure. So to just give a little bit of background, I've been in technology a really long time in the context of being in tech. My first way of getting root on a system that was in production was in 1997, just to give you that. I had just finished high school, and I needed somebody to help me understand what it is that I really wanted to do. And so I was already an internet nerd if you will. I was using BBSs, which were just dial-up services that had Door games; they had chats. And eventually, they became connected to the internet. Originally, they were just local hubs. And I went from there, and I started designing web pages because that was the natural progression. There were just ways of getting out there and seeing what it is you were doing and finding a path. And the only thing that I could figure was all right, let me make some web pages.
So I started working for Penguin Putnam Publishing, which is a huge publishing house. And from there I started working for another place. And then, I decided that I didn't want to do web design because I can barely draw a circle, so design is not my forte. And so, I ended up getting into systems. And I think sometimes it's as simple as someone giving you an opportunity. There’s a guy out of South Jersey, Central Jersey Area who gave me an opportunity to be his, I suppose, everything and anything at his company. And we did web hosting, and it was all on Linux servers. I think we had about a thousand customers, and I actually was doing dial-up internet support, so lots and lots of just SAD, SAD stuff. And then, eventually, his business just fell apart. And I went to go work for a company called Datapipe that got bought by Rackspace. I worked there for almost eight years, and I learned so much about how customers need help understanding things and being there in situations so everything from LAMP administration, Windows administration. I worked on data center migration projects. I did some project management, change management, all of this real big picture stuff, as well as, like I said, simple systems administration. And so we're talking about a pre-DevOps time where there were no pipelines. People were building things on their own. It was a Wild West time because we were past the dot-com bubble burst. And we had reached a point where all these businesses that survived the dot-com bubble or that came after were doing tons and tons of big, big, server work. And so they had lots and lots of metal web servers. And toward the end of my time there, was the first little parts of the cloud.
And so I worked at a few other places; I worked eventually at BuzzFeed. And BuzzFeed, I worked as a system administrator, and there, I got my first foray into showing people how things work and to go to people who were non-technical, that didn't do any work in technology. So we're talking about all these people at BuzzFeed who were making the Lists and even people who were in teams like data science who were technical but didn't understand server infrastructure and the underlying systems that served the projects they worked on. So I did that, and I really loved working at BuzzFeed. But like a lot of other media companies, I just didn't feel like it was a solid place to stick around. So I tried some stuff at DigitalOcean for a little while because I went from wanting to use cloud to wanting to make cloud if you will. And I did that for a little while, and then eventually, I ended up at MongoDB.
And at MongoDB, they hired me as a Cloud Technical Account Manager, and it was the beginning of TAMs at that time. And I did it because I didn't want to be on call anymore, I think is the best way to put it. I was on call at all these different jobs for something like ten years straight. And being on-call can be really tiring, you know what I mean? Being up all night, doing alert resolution, writing postmortems, all that stuff. After a while, I just really didn't feel it anymore. And so Mongo decided to come out with this hosted database service in the cloud. And I asked them, “Who's going around and telling people to use this?” And they said, “Well, we've got some ideas.” And I said, “Well, I'd love to be a developer advocate for you.” And I showed them...like, they had their idea of what developer advocacy was, but I had a different idea. And so I came to them I said, “I want to go beyond just simple evangelism. I want us to acquire users, onboard them, get them interested in the technology and create a community.” And so, getting past that, I eventually got the opportunity to head over to Microsoft. And as someone that was a Linux nerd, working at Microsoft, seemed frigging wild is the best way to put it. But I've been there now almost three years, and I have learned a lot of how-tos and how-not-to do developer relations and advocacy, and let me tell you, it's been quite a trip.
Ali: Okay. I totally want to dig into your how-tos and how-not-tos.
Ali: You ended with a fantastic last sentence, and I need to hear more. There's a lot to unpack there, so let's just jump into that.
Jay: Sure. The thing that I learned is that you can see what other people -- There's no book for DevRel. People have written like, this is how to DevRel, that's how to DevRel, but I'll be honest with you, I don't believe that there is a specific like, this is exactly how to do DevRel at your company or to your audience. It doesn't work like that. I had to fail a lot, and maybe this is the way that it works in technology is that some of the best things that help you understand how things work, how to reach people is to fail at it. I did a stream and some stuff with Ana Medina at Gremlin, and she calls herself the chaos engineering empress. And I'll be honest with you; I look at that idea of injecting failure into your work as something that's really, really important for anybody at any certain level of being in technology because that failure will eventually show you a different path, a different way of working. And so when I got into DevRel, I did something I think a lot of us get trapped into doing, which is mimicking other people's success. And I learned really quickly that you can't be a carbon copy of someone else doing developer relations. You have to build your own thing. You have to be able to figure it out on your own, and sometimes it's not easy. Sometimes you need to make a lot of mistakes, and I made a ton of mistakes. I didn't always understand how things would relate back to products, how things would relate back to concepts. And so I would try to throw anything out into the wind and see what went up in the air and stayed. And I had some tactical wins but no long-term success, and I couldn't figure out why.
Ali: On the point of going from those small tactical wins to long-term success, what's your biggest piece of advice there to using long-term success or going from those small tactical wins to helping build up a more consistent engagement and building up that longer-term success as a DevRel?
Jay: I really felt that one of the things you need to do, and I hate saying this is, is you need to create a brand that people remember. And so there's a guy I work with, his name is Thomas Maurer. He works on one of our advocacy teams, and he's got such a great, consistent amount of content that's well distributed and super accessible. And it helps people at the basic levels of understanding IT operations and integrating it with cloud tech. And to me, I looked at it, and I didn't try to mimic what he did, but I saw his blueprint from the outside looking in, and I became really, really obsessed with being consistent. And so, I believe it goes beyond just doing talks at conferences, and it certainly goes beyond just a blog post. Because I'll be honest, I spent a little time in marketing at MongoDB as part of their DevRel team. And I had to learn a lot about who you want to reach and how you want to reach them, and what is the call to action once you have. And I think that that's the real thing about DevRel is every single thing you do should have a call to action. There should be nothing created that doesn't lead somebody somewhere, whether it's to a service for your company or maybe some code that you want them to use because it's part of your service. No matter what it is you do, you need a call to action. You need them to do something.
Ali: So, taking a step back and looking back at your career as a DevRel, you really were doing DevRel before DevRel was a thing. And now that it's becoming more and more of a thing, how are you seeing the industry change? What are you excited to see come out soon? What are some of your commentary points of the things that have happened in the industry?
Jay: So the biggest change is I think something that's been the biggest change to work in general, which is the move more and more to working from home. When I was doing DevRel, I guess up until the very end of 2019 the beginning of 2020; I was on the road constantly. I think in 2019, I did something like 130 days on the road doing different conferences, going places, interviewing people. So I had a podcast I was doing called On-Call Nightmares where I was talking to people about the scary things that happened on call, and I did a ton of those interviews. And so I was traveling all over the place. I was doing events for Microsoft. I was doing independent events. I was helping organize DevOpsDays New York City. So I was one of the lead organizers for that conference. I did it for a couple of years. And I started to see when lockdowns happened here in New York City, specifically, my world fall in. So all the opportunities to reach people that I understood were mostly in person, so I had spent so much time getting face-to-face conversations with people who, to be honest with you, never get opportunities to meet people from Microsoft.
In DevRel, we get to travel all the time, or we used to. We get to meet lots and lots of people. Your average developer, IT pro, or DevOps person, whatever you want to call them, don't really get out very much unless they're in the field. For the most part, a lot of companies don't give you a ton of budget to go to events. And so they get to go to that one event a year, maybe whether it was Microsoft Ignite or back when I worked for another company, I would go to AWS re:Invent. And so these are big, big opportunities to meet people, and to be honest with you, once those ended, I needed to rethink exactly what I did and how I did it, and that was, I think, a struggle for almost everybody in DevRel. Everybody in DevRel had to take a few minutes and consider what exactly it is they want to present and how they're going to do that. And for me, I started coming up with this idea, I guess, toward the end of ‘19 beginning of ‘20, where I wanted to build out a brand. I wanted to build out a thing that people knew me specifically for, and I had to also think that this had to be online-first. And so I started seeing people using Twitch, and I decided, you know what? I guess I'm going to be a streamer. I guess I'm going to be a YouTuber or whatever you want to call it. And so the big move I think that DevRel has progressed and changed is that people have gone into these more, I guess, video live interactive sessions rather than waiting for the person to come to them at an event, that's I think the biggest change.
Ali: Yeah. So as a DevRel, you're constantly being pulled in so many different directions. And I'm curious to hear how do you balance all this pulling? What is your day-to day-like? To the new DevRel and the new face on the scene, what should they be thinking about the most when it comes to managing their day-to-day?
Jay: Sure. I think it starts, for me, with organization, and that organization begins with creating a process that's not much different from software development. So I use Azure DevOps work items as a board. I put in all the ideas that I have and all the things that I want to do. I just think of it the way I used to with a support issue is if there's a problem, I create a ticket, and I log every step of the way through the ticket. And then, by the end of it, I've got an idea of what I did when I was in the beginning and how I finished it all the way to the end. So that meant if my goal was to do a video conversation or a live streaming event with somebody or even this conversation with you, I'm going to create a work item. I'm going to say what it is, why it is, and how it is. And then eventually, I'm going to log it. And it's mostly for me; it’s mostly for the people that I work for. But I found that creating organization around my day-to-day has really helped me. And I've got ADHD, which I think almost anybody who is internet-first our minds go all over the place. And neurodiversity in technology is pretty common because there are so many different types of things that people are exposed to and so many different types of people, and sometimes it's tough. And so I had a really hard time for a long time concentrating on something. And so what I had to do was to concentrate on the idea that I wanted to every single week stream a live show, create videos for it, and then follow it up with additional content that gets distributed so far that I don't have to concern myself with putting something in the air as I mentioned, and waiting for it to take off. Now everything I'm doing, I have a plan. I execute that plan, and I've remained consistent at doing that every single week. So I think that that really is where my day -- My week starts with me doing some planning. I work with whoever...because I have guests on my show every week, so I always have a planning and production meeting with them beforehand. I try to get them to understand the goals of why we're doing the stream. I try to let them know the benefits that come with them doing it as far as who we're going to reach, how we're going to reach them, and the distribution methods after the fact. And once I get past that, then I like to do some learning.
And so, I truly believe that one of the most important things that you as a DevRel need to do is to test your docs. So I'll go through some of the docs pages that we have, and I will replicate on my local computer or in the cloud or whatever it is these different docs that we have. And I try to follow along and understand what it is. And I guess I've always been a generalist. I like learning everything about the products that I use. And so I will go through my docs, and I'll try to find problems with them, to be honest with you. I'll look for typos, and I'll look for things that don't work anymore because time has changed. And then the one thing that's really cool about the Microsoft Docs is that they're open. They're all capable -- I don't know about open source...I guess they're open source. But we can take PRs, and we can apply them so that they're all living documents, and so I really enjoy doing that. I know it sounds boring and there's a lot of copy-paste and stuff like that. But to be honest, somebody has got to do it. Someone's got to keep up to date with all these things. And at the same time, make sure that the things that you're presenting -- because ultimately, one of the big goals of my team is to get people to look at those docs. And so, every time I share one of them, I like to go through it. I like to understand it. And so, I spend a lot of time educating myself on how to work with the products that we provide.
And then from there, I also try to use a lot of the learning modules that we have on this service called Microsoft Learn, and it's the same thing. Go through it, see what works, see maybe what's broken, but understand the same experience that the end-user is getting. And so that's one of the big things I think in DevRel is if you can understand the end-user experience to anything, you have a better opportunity to explain it. So if you're teaching people about how to implement Helm with Kubernetes, you should sit down, and you should do the exact public-facing documentation around deploying a Helm Chart on a Kubernetes, and you should understand it. You should be able to do it. And then you should be able to walk away from it, saying, “You know what? I'm not just going to be a person saying the words. I'm going to be a person that's doing the same thing as you.” So I'm going to deploy my blog on Kubernetes.” Why? Sure, it's probably a little heavy. It's probably not necessarily the best thing, but a lot of people that's their first experience using Kubernetes is taking some sort of personal item and putting it online. So I think those are the big things that I try to do in a week is stream, learn, share. And I guess sharing is part of the stream. So I can share, learn, and document what it is I've done.
Ali: That's super interesting to hear what your day-to-day is like. And as we come towards the end of our conversation, if I remember correctly, you're New York-born and bred, correct?
Jay: I was born in South Florida. My parents were both Brooklynites that relocated to South Florida. So I was conceived in New York City, and then my mom when she maybe was three or four months pregnant, her and my dad moved to Florida and all sorts of tumultuous nonsense. And eventually, I moved to New York City when I was 13 years old. And so, my entire real conscious life, I suppose, has been in New York City. And I went to high school in Staten Island, and I've really never left. I went into Jersey for a little while, but it's still the same area. I never went that far, and I dared myself for years to do it. There were opportunities in the Bay Area. There were opportunities in Texas or in Austin. There were opportunities in the Denver area, and something about this particular city has kept me here. I don't know what it is. There's a giant magnet that makes me want to be the New York guy, and that's what I am.
Ali: So with that, as the world moves on to its next stage post-Covid, what are some of the New York local events that you're super excited to get back to going to, especially as people start returning to the city? What are some of your favorite events people should check out?
Jay: Not to be selfish, but DevOpsDays in New York City is something that I've been a part of for a few years. I love the DevOpsDays community. I think it's one of the best communities in technology because it's very punk rock. And when I say it's very punk rock, it's a bunch of people that are doing something in a nonprofit way to educate other people, to teach other people, to entertain other people. And it's done by volunteers, and this was similar to my experience growing up in the DIY New York hardcore scene as a kid is that we wanted to put on our own shows. And we didn't want to wait for some big promoter to do it. So a bunch of people would get together, and they’d work as a team to find venues, to get them bands booked, to be able to create spaces for people to sell their wares like their t-shirts or records. And then eventually, we would do things like charitable donations. So if you come into the venue, we'd say it's six bucks to get in, but it's five bucks if you bring a can of food. And then that can of food, my friend, Freedom, started doing this, eventually would go to a local food bank. And then eventually, we did other really interesting kinds of benefits. So we did some for a battered women's shelter. I put out a seven-inch record as a kid, and that money went to a suicide prevention organization. And so I look at all those things, and then I look at the community-based events and find these parallels.
And so, I really am looking forward to getting back to events that aren't necessarily backed by big corporations. The sponsorships are nice, sure. But do I mind going back to a Microsoft Ignite? No, not at all. I'm looking forward to that. I don't know if it's going to be here in New York City, but there are all these Microsoft events that happen around the world. I'm looking forward to getting back to those, but I want to get back to DevOpsDays. I'd love to go to something around monitoring, and there's a lot of monitoring meetups. So the monitoring operations SRE kind of meetups, I'm looking forward to those coming back. I think I don't get a lot out of it from virtual meetups. And virtual conferences they're a hit or miss for me. I find some value, but I still love the idea of talking to people directly and getting to know them, hearing them directly, and then eventually sending them on the right path. But I think about New York and what we've been through, and we at DevOpsDays New York City, I believe we had the last tech conference that was in-person in the New York Area. We were the very last one, and that was March 7th or 8th of 2020. And if you think about that, it was terrifying to even think about doing an event like that, but we pulled it off, and we learned a lot. And based on that, I can't wait to get back into that community. I want to find a nice, huge hall. I want to have people come. I want to hear how they got through the Covid experience and what they've learned, and how they've grown, and how they want to continue to learn to grow in this new world. So I hate to be selfish about it, but I'm going to have to just say I can't wait for DevOpsDays in New York City to get back.
Ali: That's awesome. I'll definitely have to go. Do you want to plug your socials? Do you want to plug your Twitter account?
Ali: Where can people find you?
Jay: Well, you can find me online a lot. I tend to be online quite a bit, but I think we all are nowadays. You can find me on Twitter at @jaydestro. You can also find my weekly stream’s Twitter @azurefunbytes with a Y, B-Y-T-E-S. You can find my stream anywhere you'd like on YouTube, on Twitch, on Twitter I stream on there, on Facebook, but really the best place to find it is at Learn TV that Microsoft hosts, so it's aka.ms/learntv. Those are all the real big ones. You can listen to the podcast that I do with Kat Cosgrove and Austin Parker. You can find that at @fsckdpod, F-S-C-K-D-P-O-D for you Unix nerds, yes, fsckd. And the reason we call it is that fsck is a binary process that helps correct corruption on hard drives. And I look at one of the things about the world and the fact that we're always trying to find the corrupt little bits and make corrections to them. And so we came up with that name, and I really love it. But those are all the big ones. @jaydestro is probably the easiest place to find me online.
Ali: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, on the show. It was absolutely a delight to talk to you.
Ali: And to those who are listening, thank you so much for staying tuned. Again, you could find me on Twitter; I’m @endingwithali. So I hope you all have a great rest of your day. Thank you.
Jonan: Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. You can find the show notes for this episode along with all of the rest of The Relicans podcasts on therelicans.com. In fact, most anything The Relicans get up to online will be on that site. We'll see you next week. Take care.