Jonan Scheffler interviews Creator and Maintainer Bekah Hawrot Weigel about Virtual Coffee, a community of developers who value and prioritize supporting one another. They host weekly coffee chats, member events, and even run a podcast!
Bekah and Dan Ott know that growth comes at all levels and that no matter what stage of the developer journey you're on, you can teach and learn. Their twice-weekly live coffees with devs at all stages of their journeys has grown into an online community that mentors, creates educational content, and provides a safe community for free!
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Jonan Scheffler: Hello and welcome to Polyglot, proudly brought to you by New Relic's developer relations team, The Relicans. Polyglot is about software design. It's about looking beyond languages to the patterns and methods that we as developers use to do our best work. You can join us every week to hear from developers who have stories to share about what has worked for them and may have some opinions about how best to write quality software. We may not always agree, but we are certainly going to have fun, and we will always do our best to level up together. You can find the show notes for this episode and all of The Relicans podcasts on developer.newrelic.com/podcasts. Thank you so much for joining us. Enjoy the show.
Hello and welcome back to Polyglot. My name is Jonan Scheffler. I work here on the Developer Relations team at New Relic. And we have an upcoming conference where you should come and see me speak and my friends speak. We have a bunch of very silly, fun things planned, a little bit of a weird online conference experience, but I think you'll enjoy it. If you would like to learn more about that, you can go to therelicans.com/futurestack, FutureStack being the name of our upcoming conference here. And I would really like to see you there. So let's kick this one off. I have a very special guest with me today, Bekah Hawrot Weigel of VirtualCoffee.io fame. How are you, Bekah?
Bekah Hawrot Weigel: I am doing really well. Thanks for having me.
Jonan: Thank you for coming. You're a very busy person. You have a schedule that is maybe as complicated as my schedule in getting a podcast scheduled. And we just sat here for a moment, struggling to get our Zencastr working. If you are trying to record a podcast, use Zencastr. Also, sometimes there’s a random bug, and then you become afraid your audio will be lost, but I'm so glad that we pulled it off. We're here. We get to talk about Virtual Coffee, which is one of the things that takes up so much of your time, and then there are some other features of your life, maybe shorter features. Why don't you give us a little background on yourself?
Bekah: I do have four shorter features, and they are my children. I have four kids ages 4 to 11, and that is part of it. I also am a consultant, so I'm doing some front-end stuff and trying to do some open source stuff with React Native to create a postpartum wellness app and generally just trying to make sure that I'm doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing.
Jonan: That you're supposed to be doing, which are, to be clear, in life in general, the things that you make up. I feel like I've created a sense of obligation for myself around all of my responsibilities in my world. But it wouldn't really all fall apart that much if I just stopped, if I just decided to pull an office space and wake up in the morning and be like, yeah, I'm not going to do that anymore. I would probably still breathe. My short features would maybe not have food to eat.
Bekah: Yeah, that would be challenging.
Jonan: You have four children.
Bekah: I do, and I think my oldest is actually taller than me now. I haven't told him that I think he finally hit that point. But I'm pretty short. I'm 5’1 and three-quarters, so it's not that much.
Jonan: I like the fractional height. Fractional height is very popular around the 5’1, 5’2 range.
Bekah: Right. When you're that short, you take what you can get.
Jonan: [laughs] That's fair, yeah. My wife is 5’2, and I am 6’4. It’s quite a disparity next to each other.
Bekah: That’s fun.
Jonan: Yeah, we work it out. We also have three children, and one of them is 14. And then we have an 11-year-old and the newer one turning two this month who has mostly not met other human beings, which is very strange, right?
Bekah: Oh yeah.
Jonan: In the pandemic time, she lived from one-two, when they really get vocal and start building relationships and things, alone in our living room. Mostly the dog is her friend. They share applesauce a lot.
Jonan: So, what would inspire someone who has four children and consults to start a thing like Virtual Coffee?
Bekah: Well, nothing, I think. [laughter]
Jonan: Do not recommend.
Bekah: For me, it was a total accident. So my background is in English. I taught college English for ten years, and then I made a big career change after I went through a trauma and just felt the community, the tech community really openly welcoming me, which was nice because teaching part-time, I didn't get that sense of community. And I went to Flatiron School bootcamp. I had a full scholarship there, which was really awesome because, at the time, I certainly couldn't have afforded it. And so I had a lot of really great opportunities along the way. And coming from trauma, I knew that the most important thing in my recovery was finding community. And even though I'm an introvert and I'm shy, that was the most important thing to know that I wasn't alone. And I had spent a lot of time isolating.
And when the pandemic hit, I had been a developer for maybe about eight months, and I feel like I had finally hit my stride. I'd been working with Dan Ott for the entire time, and I went to go pick up my kids’ books at school. Because of the pandemic, they said, “We're going to shut down for three weeks,” which turned into the rest of the year. And when I got home, I found out that we were both out of work. And so now, not only was I navigating kids being home, my husband was working two jobs at the time trying to transition from one tech job to another. And so he was working all the time. And then I was interviewing really for the first time because when Dan and I started working together, it was a conversation rather than an interview. I didn't have to sit down and do some kind of ridiculous code challenge or whatever. And I just found that I was crying every night going through that experience.
Jonan: Yeah, I can see that. Yup that sounds familiar.
Bekah: And then it finally hit me. I have felt this before. And I was like when I went through trauma; I felt these same tears and the same feeling. And so I know I need other people. I don't really want to be around other people because I am a hot mess, but I know that I need it. And so I threw up a message on Twitter. It was April 3rd of last year, and I said, “Hey, does anybody want to meet up to talk about the job search?” and people did. And then people kept wanting to talk and be part of a community. And so I was doing it once a week, and then I was doing it twice a week. And then it just kept growing and building. And so I just kept going with it because, I don't know, we all needed it. And so, for me, it was just really important to provide support for all of the people that needed it and to really embrace this community.
Jonan: It's impressive. I had a chance to attend it for the first time this last week. And there were, I want to say 60+ people there may be who broke out into these breakout rooms of 10 or 11 people and had very vulnerable and close conversations for a Zoom call which is a really unique experience to have because most of our life in Zoom is meetings with our colleagues. And generally, I think you're expected not to cry in those situations. I probably do more crying than the average in a professional environment. But you sit down with a bunch of people in a Zoom call, and you're doing business and making the plans for the next several meetings you're going to have. And then you have this Virtual Coffee experience, and it's just very uplifting to have that human experience again, to feel like you're connected to people even in contrast to all of the other disconnection we have in our lives during the pandemic. Do you think that the pandemic is really what drove Virtual Coffee? Can you imagine having -- I know from your perspective you may not have been motivated to start it, but do you think it would have grown in the same way without the pandemic?
Bekah: I don't think so. I think that we were uniquely suited to be starting it then. Because in my mind, what really drove this to work in the way that it did is we were experiencing global trauma. We were all going through trauma, and there's, I can't remember what the phrase is, but there's this thing about when people go through trauma together, and they're experiencing the same thing, it allows this closeness that can't be replicated in most other situations. And so for us, it was like fast friendships, and I'm not a person that makes friends really easily. But I felt like my closest friends now are people that I've never met in real life, and I've met through Virtual Coffee.
Jonan: I wonder if that's why bootcamps work so well because it's collective trauma. You're with this batch of humans in moments of intensity and suffering, and you only really have each other to keep yourself sane. I feel very close to the people I went through code school with a decade ago. I would move heaven and earth for these people.
Bekah: I think that's fascinating because my bootcamp was self-paced. And so I didn't have that community within my bootcamp. And I did feel alone a lot of the times, and just okay, I know that I can make this. I know that there's an end in sight. And so I just pushed through it. But for me, it was such a hard space to navigate. I did have an online group of moms who were learning to code or who were in coding. And that really helped me to feel like I was part of something and that there was someone there to help me navigate all of the things I was going through.
Jonan: Yeah, kids, take some time. They tend to get a little busy, especially young ones. And your youngest was three years old when this all kicked off.
Bekah: Yeah. And so I learned to code when she was like a year old. And so I was pushing through that, and part of the challenge, too, of doing this all is that I had kids that I had to supervise doing school at home, and I was doing this. I think one of the early Virtual Coffees, my three-year-old, would come, and she'd fix my hair on camera. And she was pouring conditioner in my hair and brushing it. And I was like, well, this is life.
Jonan: [laughs] This is what I look like now. Thank you. My youngest is very, very busy. I was imagining myself trying to learn to program with a Babybjorn on or something, which is adorable but would not have functioned with this particular child, very, very busy baby. You got to get into everything all the time and help the dog. They collaborate to destroy my life by pulling things off the counter and leaving them on the floor, and the dog can chew them up. Yeah, really funny. She doesn't forgive the dog either. When the dog eats an arm of a little toy or something, we talk about it for days like, [laughter] “Dog, arm, toy.” “Yes, we know, sweetheart. I'm really sorry that happened to you. We're going to get over it.”
So I'm interested in talking a little bit about how Virtual Coffee became successful. It's a difficult thing building community. And we talked a little bit about that tribalism that can emerge from shared trauma, which I think as people who build communities, we can agree is maybe not an ideal approach. Like, okay, well, it would be convenient if people happen to go through something altogether but maybe don't engineer the trauma upfront. Like, don't make it a checklist item. What would you put on that list of things? Like, if you were to do it all again, how would you draw that map now? I imagine there are plenty of people listening today who are in that space, and designing communities intentionally is actually really important, I think, to make sure that they are safe and welcoming and all of those other pieces. What kinds of things would you put on your checklist?
Bekah: I think that's a really good question. And for me, I spent a lot of time really looking for other communities that were doing the same things because I wanted to apply their model to make it a little bit easier, and I just couldn't find it. And so it was a real struggle. But for me, we look at all these measurable things, and we look at metrics. And for me, metrics are not the most important part of my community. The most important part is the authentic connection and people who respond to each other, the We-Us model. So we're all in this together. We're all supporting each other. We can all learn from each other. And horizontal mentoring is big on my list. And I think that coming with this person-centered approach first starting there is really important to establishing the culture and what you're looking for but then also recognizing that you should have support structures in place that supports everyone, so community members and community leaders and builders, too, because there's a lot of burnout. And so looking at what your community looks like, seeing what supports them in the best ways possible, creating these systems and tools and processes will help to sustain the community over the long run. And so I think that there's this kind of two-fold approach of like, let's do this person-centered thing, but also part of that is the support structures and tools that go with it.
Jonan: And that's how you keep those organizers. You have many volunteers who work with you on Virtual Coffee. You had a volunteer or two in each of the breakout rooms. How many people volunteer with you on Virtual Coffee overall?
Bekah: I don't know. That's such a good question because we're doing a lot of growing and changing. So some of the stuff that I was handling mostly before were working on those structures and those processes so we can empower our members to also be doing these things and getting this experience as well. So we have, I think, a solid 20 people that help just for the coffees. But then we have a lot of mentoring going on within the community. We ran our second round of lightning talks in March, I think. And we had between 10 and 20 people who supported us with that as well. So there are a lot of processes that are going on, and we're growing a lot and making room for supporting members who want to help support the community too. So I am not exactly sure, but I feel like almost everybody has a hand in something.
Jonan: Yeah, which is, I think, a unique feature. I don’t want to say it's very difficult, but there's this hurdle that you've created outside of the community to come in and join. It's not that you go to a website and you put your name in a form, and then you're in. You attend a Virtual Coffee, and you participate in the discussion, and then you have an opportunity to apply to become a member of Virtual Coffee. You're very intentional about how you're building out the community. Judging just on what I saw when I was there, I don't imagine that there's any qualification beyond be a real human and participate. But that be a real human part that's a pretty important step. A lot of communities suffer from this problem where you have people in there on multiple accounts and sock puppets and bots, even less nefarious things where you just have someone sign up, and they're not really an active participant in the community. I really liked that feature of Virtual Coffee because you're not anonymous anymore. I think that that initial feeling of being anonymous getting from there, which like you explained about being an introvert, to a place where you actually feel engaged and beyond welcome, invited. You feel invited. Like, this is actually us reaching out and saying, “Yes, we want you to be a member here, and we want you to participate in the community.” And you know these people now, and so it lowers that barrier to entry. Is that a choice you made intentionally early on?
Bekah: Yeah, absolutely. I think we knew that the intimacy was a core value of our group and the word came up. I think that Dan was the first one to use it. And it's interesting because it's not really a word that you hear people using a lot, especially to describe tech or meetups or whatever. But I think our tagline is an intimate group of devs optimized for you. And so the idea is that we have this space where we see each other, or we talk to each other. We can hear each other's voices. And what that does is allow for more vulnerability right from the beginning. And I want to go back a second to something you said about this idea of active participation because, for me, coming from my background as a teacher, at some point, I recognize that that looks a lot different for lots of different people. And this is where metrics fail people who are quiet or who are listeners because those community members are still valuable. You're valuable if you're not volunteering. You're important if you're not giving talks. We're there to support every person in the way that works for them. And I think when people understand that and when that's clearly recognizable, then that's when people are able to participate in ways that are comfortable for them but also maybe go a little bit beyond what's comfortable for them and take some risks and making connections in ways that they haven't before. And I know even for me, I've been more vulnerable in the last year and more open with people than I ever have because I felt supported.
Jonan: So I should probably put a meeting on with the executive team called intimate vulnerability or something for next week. You don't actually get that in professional environments very often; you’re right. If you're really lucky, you have a team that has the psychological safety to achieve that, but it is rare that you find it. And I think you make an excellent point about needing to support people in the ways that they want to be supported. As an introvert myself, I'm sure there are a lot of introverts that just keep making podcasts and [inaudible 18:15] Actually, I am technically an introvert on this scale, the Myers-Briggs invented exclusionary test scale.
Bekah: That’s me.
Jonan: I am technically an introvert, but I am obviously very extroverted, particularly within software communities. When I find my people, I get really excitable and talky. But then in the context of a community, if we were measuring, for example, how many times a person spoke out loud at a Virtual Coffee, if we're trying to analyze the community just with quantitative measurement and we're looking at it from the outside, how many times did Jonan speak? How many times did Jonan write a message in the chat? And then none of those represent the fact that maybe the core of that community and the person who really draws it all together makes five comments that are the glue that binds. You can't really measure community or success in that way. But what if you were trying? What makes you know that Virtual Coffee is a success? What would you use as that measuring stick? And we don't necessarily need to come up with a number. But if you were going to come back to Virtual Coffee in a year and look at it, what would you consider success looks like, and how would you know that maybe you could have done better?
Bekah: I think one of the things is support responsiveness from community members. And so we have a lot of people who are asking questions who are trying to get support or help or guidance from other community members. And one of the things I'm most proud of in Slack is I don't know that I've ever seen somebody not get an answer, and it's almost always a quick answer. We are dispersed all over the globe. And so we have people at all times zones, and it's just very great to see, okay, that person's needs were taken care of really quickly. And so that would be maybe the number one thing that I would really look at. And I even feel like if we're looking at something like churn rate or something, that's hard too because one of the things we want to recognize is that there are seasons to life, and everybody's in a different season. So we've had some amazing members who were really active and then got jobs, and they couldn't participate anymore. And we miss those members, but also, we're very excited for them. We do have a lot of people who are seeking jobs. I guess if we wanted to look at numbers, there have been a ton of people who have found jobs through authentic relationships that they built in Virtual Coffee, not the gross networking that some people tell you to do.
Jonan: Yeah, the transactional thing like, “Hi, nice to meet you. Here's my business card. I make websites.” It's not going to get you very far, but human relationships will if you are genuinely there to make friends and you're not making it transactional. You're offering value to the community first, and you're going to get the value back. It does take this leap of faith this opening up and saying, “Hey, I'm here to participate, and I'm here to help others around me.” And in so doing, I built this tight-knit group of friends who eventually will be there to support me when I need help.
Bekah: Yeah, absolutely. And we ran a Hacktoberfest event last year for Virtual Coffee. This was, I think, a major milestone for me because we provided mentors, and support, and documentation for contributors but also for maintainers. And we had five community members as maintainers. I was one of them. I didn't want to do it because I thought there's no way I can do this; I don't have enough experience. And the community encouraged me to do it. And it was one of the best experiences for me because I had all of these people who I was working with and it's like, “Hey, I'm pretty new to working with React Native, and this is what I'm trying to do.” And we were able to work through so many things together. But that feeling of community doing this together made such a huge impact on my perspective on that project but on the community as well. And knowing that our members are also actively contributing to each other's repositories is really exciting. And I think we're going to build some really cool things moving off of that.
Jonan: That's really valuable, actually, just to have that peer group. And it's asynchronous peer programming. You're participating in the same projects and able to have those meetings where you can catch up with each other. I would love to see what the Virtual Coffee community builds in terms of open source projects together. And yeah, that's great. People contribute to the website. Is this a thing that you put together yourself, or do other members get involved?
Bekah: For Hacktoberfest last year, one of the things that we really wanted to make sure that we could do is -- everybody's telling new programmers, “Get into open source,” but then also, open source is really hard and challenging for new programmers to get in. I spent hours looking for issues that I could tackle, and it could have a good for beginner label. And then I would read it, and I say, “I have no idea what any of this even means. What beginner is this?” So we wanted to create an approach where people felt comfortable, and they felt supported, and that's why we had mentorship. But Dan Ott has been working pretty hard on the website. He redesigned the entire website for Hacktoberfest and created an issue that all of our members could do. And then we kicked off Hacktoberfest with an event where we walked them through making a pull request for that issue and made sure that they all had the support to do it. And so our site, Dan, has very much been doing a great job of creating an environment where people are comfortable working on things. And there are issues there that members are tackling. And it's definitely been such a good experience to be able to know that you can just reach out, and somebody that you know from the community is going to pair with you because it's different than…like, you can't DM on GitHub.
Jonan: But those comments threads where people often get quite vicious with each other, it is painfully obvious that on the internet, humans often forget that they're talking to other humans.
Jonan: I want to call out the intentional choice to guide people over that first hurdle here in the community. You have this activity that you all have in common and would like to participate in together. Even if this was a knitting community, you're all going to make mittens this month or whatever it is but that kickstart of here is what your trying to do in the very beginning, and here's how you actually make a pull request in the world of open source is very intimidating to walk into that repository. And even if an issue looks quite complicated and we are in the business of that, we're in the business of looking at things that we don't know and then figuring out the parts. But having someone there to help you over that first hurdle will make a contributor out of you for life. You'll end up coming back to that repo and others and making contributions because it's no longer so scary. You've removed this whole scope of work that they would have had to learn and navigate, and making your first pull request is not only terrifying because “Here's my code that I think is bad. I'm going to show it to some people who made something brilliant that I really like,” but also you don't know how that's going to be received on the other end. And knowing that you have that safety net all the way through the whole process and being guided, I think, is a really fundamental part of what makes Virtual Coffee so special.
I am trying to build that checklist. I know we agreed not to quantify this thing. But I want to talk through what we've covered here. This person-centered approach is enabled by having the structures in place. You have to have the structures and process. So the organizers evolve out of the community; the people who want to pick up these pieces are just enabled from the beginning to do that. We have that authentic connection, that vulnerability, and intimacy, and human connection being crucial for the development of community. You have to care about the people you're around. You have the lightning talks. I like that one. I want to hear a little bit more about that before we call it a show. We have weekly lightning talks on our team, but we're a DevRel team. We practice internally speaking every week. And how did you put that together? Did you just have an open call and only presented to each other, or was it published?
Bekah: So prior to Hacktoberfest, I had talked about doing lightning talks in November, and then I did not realize how exhausting Hacktoberfest was going to be. It was very wonderful, and I loved it. But after October wrapped, I was so tired. And then somebody from the community put a message in Slack and was like, “Hey, didn't you say we're going to do lightning talks this month?” And I was like...
Jonan: Yes, I did. Thank you for reminding me.
Bekah: Yup. Yup. And we’re going to do it. [chuckles]
Jonan: Yeah, go ahead and polish that up by tomorrow.
Bekah: Yeah. Well, I did. I strong-armed my way through it, but one of the things that I'm very adamant that we do is provide mentorship in some way for all of the things that we're doing. And so the first round of Hacktoberfest, I did all the mentorship with everybody who asked for it. And I was really lucky that at some point, Dan and Kirk, who are maintainers in the community, reached out and said, “Hey, do you need some help?” And I'm not great at asking for help. I'm getting better at it. But I was super desperate. I was like, “Yes, thank you for noticing.” And within two weeks, we had it all set up. So we did do an open call for the community. Everybody who submits is accepted. And the second time we ran it, we put structures in place that allowed the community to take more of a role. So we did have mentors, and we had speakers, but we had coordinators for things. We had people checking out different technologies to use for things, an AV team who was doing checks, and things like that. And so we had those structures, and we have it up on a GitHub project board. And then after we went through everything, we did get together and meet up and get feedback on the processes to make sure that we can just keep improving, like iterating probably until we're dead [chuckles] because I don't think it can get perfect. And it was the same thing. We had the call out for everyone; we live-streamed it to our community. It is up on our YouTube channel now. So the first round is just a two-hour-long stream. The second round is broken up into individual talks and a playlist. And so yeah, we have those up there now, and it was really great going through this the second time, and I know next time is going to be even better.
Jonan: In the community, I think that knowledge transfer piece is really important. And so what you've done there with your lightning talks is you've created this shared experience. Everyone gets to practice speaking. They are learning just by the nature of the activity. They're learning how to speak in front of a group. It's a little bit like Toastmasters. But at the same time, the things that they're communicating to each other add value to the community itself, and you have this formalized knowledge transfer mechanism. You also spoke about the horizontal mentorship, which I think is pretty vitally important. A lot of people think of a mentor-mentee relationship as being one that only exists where you find someone who has moved far beyond where you are in your career, and they have things to teach you. But in reality, we all know that we have things to teach each other in our peer groups, and remembering that is so difficult, especially early on. Imposter syndrome gives you this Venn diagram of things I know, things they know, things we know, except you also look at the things they know as things you should know. So your Venn diagram in your own head is just one big blob of I should know everything. And in reality, you’re discounting, I think, the other information that you have that people would find valuable and that lightning talk process, I think susses that out, and so does the mentorship.
Bekah: Yeah, for sure. And I just want to say, too, that I think initially I always was focused on providing support to our new developers because I'm an early career developer too, and I knew the struggles. But after that first round of lightning talks, I reached out to one of our very senior people who's been coming for a long time. And I said, “Hey, why didn't you give a talk?” And he said, “Oh, I was too nervous.” And it didn't strike me until right at that moment that there would be that imposter syndrome across all of the board. And so my approach the second time around was a little bit different, too, because I also like to reach out to people and say, “Hey, why don't you do this?” Because I think sometimes that's what it takes. You have that personal connection, and you know they would be really great, but maybe they don't think they would be really great. And just saying, “Hey, we can practice together, or we have mentorship, or I'll brainstorm ideas with you or bounce them off me or whatever,” but just recognizing that all of us have some feeling of self-doubt and everybody deserves support and encouragement.
Jonan: Well said. The overall theme of Virtual Coffee is meeting people where they are and explicitly inviting them to participate in activities that bond them and level them up. And I'm really appreciative of this community that I have just recently become a part of. I look forward to many more Virtual Coffees in the future. If you were to go and give yourself advice, what lessons have you learned over the past year that you might tell yourself when you were just starting into this thing? Maybe I don't want to say you look back and regret it because we are all a product of our experiences. But what would you look back and tell yourself or someone else maybe who is trying to start something similar as some advice?
Bekah: I would say we just read Radical Candor for our book club and that I wish I would have read that a really long time ago because it taught about the importance of having hard conversations. And I recognize that over the last year, I had hard conversations, but I didn't do them in the right way. And so what I thought was preserving people's feelings was really not helping them to grow or to recognize maybe what the problems were in the situation or me not being openly candid with them because I was afraid that it would hurt them. And so for me, I think if I could go back, it would be open and honest. You don't have to be mean about things. You can do it with empathy. But if you care about the people in front of you, you're going to be honest about what is happening and where you're at in the process of things, and part of that is also recognizing where you're at in the process of things. A lot of self-evaluation is not something that you do once, and then you check your box off for the year. It's something that you should be doing all of the time.
Jonan: I did actually just check that box on my checklist, self-evaluate; I already finished that part.
Bekah: Oh, you’re done for the year.
Jonan: This morning with my coffee.
Jonan: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show again, Bekah. If people want to find you online, they can obviously go to virtualcoffee.io. Any place else? Where do you hang out? Are you on Twitter?
Bekah: I am on Twitter. I am a prolific tweeter, so you can find me @bekahhw. So it's B-E-K-A-H-H-W. And that's I think where I am on Instagram and dev.to as well. So I like to keep it consistent.
Jonan: Awesome. I appreciate that. I advise people over and over again when they're coming into this industry, get yourself a Twitter account and use a consistent handle across everything so I can find you. Well, thank you again. I hope you have a wonderful day, and I look forward to keeping up with the Virtual Coffee community as it grows. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Bekah.
Bekah: Thank you so much for having me.
Jonan: I want to remind you all that New Relic and The Relicans are going to be at our upcoming conference, FutureStack, coming up on May 24th. You can stop by therelicans.com/futurestack and read about it. We would love to have you there. I hope you have a wonderful day.
Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. You can find the show notes for this episode along with all of the rest of The Relicans podcasts on therelicans.com. In fact, most anything The Relicans get up to online will be on that site. You'll also find news there of FutureStack, our upcoming conference here at New Relic. We would love to have you join us. We'll see you next week. Take care.