In this episode, Aline Krebs, 2D/3D Game Artist at Voodoo Berlin, talks about knowing she wanted to work in the video game industry as a teenager, being the only woman on a team of developers, fighting impostor syndrome, and the importance of never giving up.
Should you find a burning need to share your thoughts or rants about the show, please spray them at email@example.com. While you’re going to all the trouble of shipping us some bytes, please consider taking a moment to let us know what you’d like to hear on the show in the future. Despite the all-caps flaming you will receive in response, please know that we are sincerely interested in your feedback; we aim to appease. Follow us on the Twitters: @LaunchiesShow.
Chris Sean Debatos: Hello, everyone. This is Chris Sean, and I want to welcome every single one of you to the Launchies podcast. Today, and I mean today, we have a very special guest. From across the world in Berlin way across the world, we have Aline Krebs. Welcome, Aline, nice to have you on the podcast.
Aline Krebs: Oh, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: Thank you. I'm glad you find it to be a pleasure. [Laughter] So for those of you that do not know, it's Aline, not Alain. Aline Krebs is a 2D/3D game artist for Voodoo Berlin. This is where you create concept art in both in game and production assets. You have a passion for 3D environments, which is pretty cool. I think it's cool you have a passion for 3D environments, by the way, and all things colorful. [Laughter] Aline has produced artwork for mobile games such as City of Love: Paris and oh, how do you pronounce this? Partouche Casino Games.
Aline: It's Partouche. It's a French casino. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: Partouche Casino Games. Wow. That sounds way better. [Laughter] Alongside working as the solo artist for Steam and Switch game Breaks are for Losers. That's pretty cool. And then after being introduced to video games by your parents, I'm assuming, at a young age, you made a decision to enter the game industry as a teenager. You made a decision as a teenager, teaching yourself the skills you needed before securing a diploma in graphic design and then attending ENJMIN to study Games and Interactive Digital Media. By the way, hold on.
Chris Sean: You knew you were going into the industry, the gaming industry when you were a teenager, how old as a teenager?
Aline: I would say I already wanted to go into the industry when I was 13 or 14. But I didn't really know how I could do that because, for me, it was really blurry. In France at the time, it was a little bit difficult to find studies to just learn how video games are made. But I was really sure that I wanted to work in this industry because I've been playing games since forever.
Chris Sean: Yeah, we all have.
Aline: So yeah, it's pretty a passion. And it's always been in my house since I was a little kid. So I was really sure I wanted to work in this video game industry, but I didn't know how to do that. So when I was 14, I started asking a counselor when I was in school I was like, "I'm really interested in video games, and I really like to draw. What can I do to do that?" And she was like, "I don't know. [Laughter] But maybe you can study some design during high school and maybe it will help you in a way." [Laughs]
Chris Sean: Wow. That is awesome.
Aline: It was a little bit complicated at first because when I started high school when I was 15, I directly told my teacher that I wanted to work in the video games industry. But honestly, they didn't know what to do for me because it was really old school, "If you want to do architecture or just design objects or do some graphic design, we can help you, but we don't know anything about video games." [Laughs]
Chris Sean: Totally different world.
Aline: Yes. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: Wow. I think it's amazing because I'll tell you this, what kid teenager, or even adult has not dreamed about creating a video game? Everyone wants to do that when they're a kid. Everyone is like, "Wow, it would be so cool to be able to make a James Bond video game, going back in the day, or a Mario video game, that'd be so cool to take part in that. But what is it that made you really go all in? And by the way, this is back in the day. How many years ago? That's still a couple of years ago. So, what made you so determined to get into it?
Aline: I guess it's because my dad told me several times that if I want to choose a job in my life, I really need to be happy to wake up in the morning and do that job. And it's really important because he's an old school dad, and, for him, you do the same job all your life. So he was like, "You really need to choose a job you will love." I guess it pushed me to choose something that I really love, and it's video games.
Chris Sean: I'll tell you this: I love video games too. [Laughter] That's awesome, though. Let me tell you something, the fact that your dad said that that's amazing. I tell everyone "You need to do what you love; hopefully, it'll pay you well, hopefully." [Laughter] I have friends who love just playing card games, poker games; it doesn't always pay well. You tend to lose money a lot if you're betting in poker, but that's not always a good job.
Chris Sean: But the fact that your dad told you that is amazing, not many parents do that. For example, I'm Asian, I'm Filipino. Everyone in my family is a nurse or a doctor. Everyone told me, "Chris, become a nurse or a doctor." If I did not become a nurse or a doctor, I would be a failure that's what they told me. I hate shots, I hate needles, I hate the hospital, so I didn't do it. But the fact that your dad would tell you that is amazing. You are very fortunate to have that.
Aline: Yes, I totally agree with that. And I guess it's because when he was younger himself, he didn't have this choice, and he was really frustrated because he was doing something he didn't like. But my grandpa forced him to do a job, and he didn't have the choice so he did this. And later, he changed to a job he really liked. But at first, it was really complicated for him because my grandpa said, "You need to do this job because if you don't do that, you will be a failure." And it's really hard when you are a teenager to just hear that "If you don't do that, you will be just a mess." No, no. You can't say that to teenagers because they build themselves, and they really need to be encouraged to do what they like and what they love.
Chris Sean: And I think a lot of people think they know what they want to do for a living and then when they try it out, they'll be like oh, I made a bad decision. [Laughter] So I think it's important to let people know, try and fail. I think it's very important.
Chris Sean: And you are very fortunate to get into that industry though. So I'm curious. So for a lot of people who -- I've thought about going to the gaming industry, is it as intense as people say it is? From what I've heard, game developers -- So this is what pushed me away: I've known game developers who work 80 hours a week sometimes. Now for me, I will not work more than 40, not anymore; there was a job that made me, and I quit. [Laughter] So I told myself. Nope, forget it. I'm not going to that industry. So how intense is it? How are the hours for you?
Aline: I would say it really depends on which studio you are and which team and which manager you have, but I would say it's hard. It really depends as well on the production. If you are close to the release of the game, it will get harder and harder because you need to create some content for players. So there will be a lot of work to do but if the managers are doing their job correctly with the management planning and everything, it will be okay. But yes, it's a really hard industry. It has lots of problems for me. It's really cool to work in the video game industry, but the main problem for me is the passion because everyone is really involved in production. It's a passion, so you just don't count your hours. After spending 40 to 50 hours a week, you're like, I'm just exhausted. And after you're like, yeah, I'm exhausted because I overworked, but I really love my work, but I don't have any personal life. So what can I do?
Chris Sean: If you love what you do for a living, it's different. It is totally different. I agree 100,000,000%.
Chris Sean: Since we're on this topic then I'm just curious as a human being.
Chris Sean: If you can share, maybe if there's something that you can share, do you have any cons for working in the game industry?
Aline: Yes. There are lots of cons because people -- I talked about passion and so for me, it's a pro and con at the same time because sometimes people are too passionate and you're like, "I don't even of your knowledge," so it's a little bit complicated. [Laughter] Yeah. Sometimes it can be a little bit tricky, and you also have sometimes this weird mindset that I know better than you do, so it creates a lot of imposter syndrome if you are not confident with your skills. So, yeah, it can be really hard. Now it's getting better and better, but we have also a diversity problem in the industry; there are lots of men and not a lot of women.
Chris Sean: I think that's the tech industry in general.
Aline: Yes. [Laughter] It's a little bit complicated sometimes being the only woman in a team, and you have to fight for your ideas, and it can be hard. But luckily, I didn't have too much trouble with that. I think I'm privileged about it.
Chris Sean: If I could be honest with you, I've been in the industry for five years and every time there is a woman in the team, I'm intimidated because she's always way better than me. [Laughter] They're just way better than me. They're more confident. When I have an opinion, their opinion is better than my opinion. [Laughter] I have a lot of respect for the women in tech because it's not easy, I can only imagine, and you have to work harder. And so for me, I'm not white, I'm Asian, and people think Asians are really good developers, and that's a problem because I'm not the best developer. [Laughter] And people think I'm better than I really am. So I have my own problems to face.
Chris Sean: But yeah, women in tech, from the people I know, have been amazing, and I can only imagine how difficult it could be on your end. What do you think, or what do you wish could change for women in tech? Since we're on this topic right now.
Aline: I guess it would be really cool to just educate more people and to be open-minded about everything because it also creates better games for players as well because if we have more diversity in the industry, we will be able to make more diverse projects.
Chris Sean: I agree.
Aline: And it will be really cool because I remember when I was a kid, in video games, I didn't have a character that I really loved. And I didn't have a role model directly in video games because I played a lot of video games that had male characters. So I was like, I can't be like this character because I'm not a man. It will be really cool to just be open-minded and taking into account that when we create a game when we want to produce a game, it's not mainly for ourselves; it's for the target audience, and we have to take into account the wishes of this audience. You don't do it for yourself; it's just business because if you do it for yourself, nobody will buy your game. [Laughs] You have to be pragmatic about this.
Chris Sean: You do.
Aline: You really need to be careful about it. And I will just repeat it, be more open-minded, be careful, find some info about diversity as well. It could really help to have a better industry as well.
Chris Sean: Awesome. I agree 100%. I've been terrified of women I've worked with because they're so much better than me, so I respect them so much more. [Laughter] When I quit my last job, the other developer there, who’s also a woman, I tried to take her from that team and that company would not let her go. [Laughter] I didn't quit, they laid me off, and they kept her. [Laughter] But I tried to take her with me, but they wouldn't let her go no matter what. [Laughter] So, yes, I agree. We need a lot of women in tech, in general, in everything, honestly. Thank you for sharing that. I know that it's hard to even get a platform to be able to share things like that. I don't hear people talk about that often as well, to be honest. My next question then, since we're talking about this as well, you mentioned imposter syndrome and how everyone is so passionate about everything. I have past experienced too that there are people who think that they are better than others. So how did you deal with that? Did you have a lot of impostor syndrome as well? Do you still have imposter syndrome?
Aline: All the time. No, it's getting better and better to be honest. But yes, I have imposter syndrome sometimes. For instance when I get stressed about a project or if I won't deliver in time, for instance, I say to myself, "You're not good enough that's why you can't do it." I also have the strong ability to compare my work to others, and it's not good to do that. Don't do that. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: No.
Aline: It's really bad to do that because you always feel like you're not good enough and your work is not good enough for what you are supposed to do.
Chris Sean: How do you fight that?
Aline: I try to focus only on myself. And also repeat to myself that "I am good enough." I did this long journey to have my position, and I deserve it because I fought for it. So it's really important to just take care of yourself at this moment and say, yeah, maybe you have this imposter syndrome, which is really strong right now, but I can say that you're good, and you can do it. It's really important. Sometimes when you are just completely overstressed by your work and your feelings are really strong, it's really difficult to just say you're good enough, but you have to try to say it in your mind. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: I agree. I personally, myself, I've been through that where I would tell myself they hired the wrong person. And it's funny, I have a YouTube channel where I try to inspire aspiring developers around the world and my boss was like, "Chris, why are you so confident in YouTube videos but when you're in the office, you're not confident at all? I don't get it." [Laughter] And this happened a lot. He had to remind me all the time "Chris, I hired you for a reason not because you're the best developer out there but because I know you can get the job done." And he told me, "Chris, you are better than you realize." And I think a lot of us forget that we are better than we realize. And I made the big mistake of always comparing myself to everyone. That's so hard not to do. [Laughter] When we used to work in the office when everyone used to work in the office, everyone looked so not stressed out, everyone had noise-canceling headphones, and they'd look like they were doing so well. Oh, by the way, that friend I tried to take from the company when I got laid off, I tried to help her join my new company. I mean, she's really good. And what she told me was, "Chris, I thought you were better than me." And I'm like, "What? What were you -- [Laughter] So that is a problem, comparing ourselves all the time. I think that has to change for sure.
Aline: Yes. I completely agree with that. And when you are an artist, it's really easy to just compare your work to others because you have a lot of platforms everywhere on the internet, ArtStation, Instagram, everything, and you're like, "Oh, did you see his work? Oh, it's so cool. I can't do that. I'm completely sh*tty." [Laughter] In fact, you're not because you have your own qualities, and it's really important to just know your qualities. For instance, for myself, I thought for a long time that I wasn't good enough because I'm a 2D and 3D generalist. I'm not specialized in anything in 2D or anything in 3D. When I started to apply for jobs in the video game industry, a lot of recruiters told me that I wasn't specialized enough to find a job. And I was like, whoa. I heard that, and I was like, but I really like to do 2D and 3D. And why should I change that? And for a long time, I thought it was a really big mistake to not be specialized in anything. And now I realize it's really important to have some different profiles directly in a team. It's really cool to have something really specialized in one thing but also to have someone who can do a lot of stuff, different stuff, different areas of expertise. It's really important. You also have lots of this speech, like, yes, it's because you're not specialized you can't find a job, and that's not true because I guess you can find a place anywhere but a place is existing for you, but you really need to be committed to find it.
Chris Sean: It's not easy. How long did it take you to find a job after the recruiters told you that?
Aline: I would say one year and a half.
Chris Sean: Wow. You kept going for a year and a half after you heard those words.
Chris Sean: Wow.
Aline: It was hard. [Laughs] But to be honest, I started to send just my resume to companies and then I didn't find any job. But in the meantime, one of my friends told me that he wanted to create a video game. So it was Brakes Are For Losers. And he said, "Yeah, it's my dream to create this kind of game, and I need an artist to do that. So it won't be a paid job but maybe it can help you with your portfolio and maybe you will be able to find some job after that." And I said, "Yeah. Okay. I can do it because, to be honest, I don't have any job. I don't know what to do with my life."[Laughter] I completely agree with you. I will do that because I really need a portfolio, and I really need professional experience."
Chris Sean: Yes. Yes.
Aline: So it was a win-win. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: 100%. How long did it take for you to get a job after you helped with that game?
Aline: In fact, to be honest, in the meantime, when I was in the middle of this, of the development of BAFL, I had been contracted as a freelancer to do short contracts. And I was like, if I can't have a permanent job in a company, maybe I can create my own company and just be an outsourcer for big companies. In fact, I didn't find a proper job in a company, but I created mine. And it was a really cool experience because I said yeah, to be honest, it's really cool because with my company, I can do very different projects, and I can work on both 2D and 3D and nobody will say, "You're not good enough because you're not specialized."
Chris Sean: Wow.
Aline: It was hard, to be honest. [Laughs] All this time it was hard because you have to still fight your imposter syndrome even if you created your own company and everything because you're like, yeah, I'm not good enough. I won't find a contract or anything like this, but you do it because you need to eat. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: Oh, man. So you talked about how why work for a company when you can just help people find jobs in this industry? You mentioned how why work for a company full-time when you can help do this freelance full-time, I guess you can say.
Aline: In fact, it started because someone asked me, "Hey, are you available for a freelance job?" And I was like, "Yes, I can." [Laughs] So it was really cool. And during this time, I was still looking for a job in a company directly, not having my own company. But yeah, in fact, it was really cool to just jump from a project to another, so it was really interesting. I was able to do everything I like. So for instance, I worked for board games, I worked for video games, I did graphic design. It was really cool. It touched on a lot of my different areas of expertise. I didn't have to choose. So it was perfect for me because when I want to create something, I just like everything. So I didn't have to say, "Yeah, I'm sorry I can't do anything in 2D. I can't do anything in 3D." In fact, sometimes I had some clients like, "Yes, we also need -- so you started to do some 2D environment, but we also need some 3D objects. Are you able to do that?" "Yes, I can." Let me do that. [Laughter]
Chris Sean: Nice. Wow.
Aline: It was really cool. And after this long period where I doubted a lot about my skills, I started to work a freelance job for Partouche Casino Games. It was just a short mission after the people that I worked for were really happy about my work. They said, "Yeah, we have tons of work to do in the next couple of months. Do you want to have a part-time job with us? I was like, "Yes. sure."
Aline: I will be paid. It's so cool.
Chris Sean: I know, right? I'm going to make some money, yay!
Aline: I will be able to pay my rent. Yes!
Chris Sean: That's kind of important.
Aline: To be honest, without my parent's support, I wouldn't be able to work in the video games industry anymore. I had a long period where I didn't have enough money to just live, so it was really complicated, and my parents helped me a lot. So when I had this part-time opportunity, I was like, yes, please [Laughs] I really want to work for you. [Laughter] Even if I also had my clients on the side, it was just really cool to have a regular salary every month and just to be able to relax a little bit. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: I bet. Okay. So a question then, since then, since COVID, has that affected your job, or how's it going for you now as a game developer during COVID? I'm very curious.
Aline: For me, COVID didn't change anything in a bad way, and it was the opposite.
Chris Sean: Wow. I wasn't expecting that. [Laughter] You sounded very sad, to be honest, when you started responding. [Laughter]
Aline: "Oh, man. It's so hard. I can't do anything," no. To be honest, it was really good because just before COVID, I started my new position in Berlin. I was living in the south of France. I was contacted to be a part of a new adventure and a new studio in Voodoo. It was perfect for me because my part-time job ended. They didn't have enough work for me, so I was just thinking what can I do now? I'm really exhausted from having my own company because it is a lot of work. I have to think about everything, and it wasn't related to art. You have to do everything, the administartion parts. In fact, you have 10 jobs at once when you have your own company, so it was really exhausting. I felt I really needed to have some security, and I really needed to just move forward and be able also to experience growth because it was the first time I was living in another country.
Chris Sean: You're not from Berlin?
Aline: No, I'm French. Yes. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: I'm not going to lie, since the beginning, I was a little confused because you had a French accent. That makes sense now. Thank you. Thank you.
Aline: I also have a German name, so maybe that's why. [Laughs] I'm French. So I moved a year ago now. Yes, I started my new position last January. It was really cool because it was just before COVID. We talked a little bit when I arrived in Berlin, like, yeah, COVID is a little bit shitty, but we don't really know about it, blah, blah, blah. And I was like yeah, I don't care. And after two months, oh, it's lockdown. Okay. [Laughs] To be honest, it didn't affect my work too much. We had, like the entire world, to adapt directly to our work. And it was pretty challenging because when I started to work for Voodoo, we were only three or four people, and the team was going to arrive in March. But in March, we had the lockdown in Germany, and I saw the entire team for one week, and after, we had the lockdown. So it was pretty challenging to get to know each other without seeing people just to be able to work together even if we don't know each other. But I still work for Voodoo. [Laughter] It's a really cool experience, and it was pretty challenging, but now I guess we are all on-site, and it works pretty well.
Chris Sean: Wow. What an amazing journey.
Aline: [Laughs] Yes.
Chris Sean: I can relate. It's not for the game industry but that dream of being a developer, getting that first developer job and hearing recruiters telling you pretty much "You're not good enough," that's what they're saying. And for a year and a half, the fact that you kept going after hearing those words, that takes determination. I've spoken to thousands of developers and a lot of them felt like giving up a lot of times, but they got jobs pretty quickly so that's why they didn't it. But the fact you kept going after almost two years, why? You said that your parents had to help support you too. That's not easy.
Aline: No, it's not easy because you feel guilty for not finding a job and not paying anything by yourself. It's really complicated. You feel really bad about it. But at the same time, I was like, if I can't work in the video game industry, I don't know what to do with my life, to be honest, I just don't know.
Chris Sean: Really?
Aline: I could have worked as a graphic designer for a company.
Chris Sean: That's not satisfying.
Aline: Yes, it's a really cool job, but it's not for me right now and when I was trying to find a job. I had some interviews about being a graphic designer. It was a really bad interview because -- so I went to two or three interviews directly on-site, and I spoke to the CEO and he was like, "Yeah, I really need a graphic designer because my graphic designer won't work for me anymore. So what can you do about it?" So I was like, "Yeah, I have a portfolio. I can do some logos, I can do some page layout everything on graphic design." And he was like, "Yes, but in your portfolio, you're not good enough."
Chris Sean: Whoa.
Aline: I was like, "What? So for me, it's just a job for me to find something to eat and you said that I am not good enough? So, I just don't want to work for you."
Chris Sean: He said those words?
Aline: Yes. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: Give me his number. I will speak to him myself.
Aline: I already burned his house. It's okay. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: Oh my gosh.
Aline: Yeah, but it's so hard. And sometimes you have some people who know that you just finished your studies, and you're in a vulnerable position because you really need a job, and they take advantage of it. Yes, you're a junior so I can ask anything; you will do it. You won't be paid enough. I just don't care.
Chris Sean: As a game artist.
Aline: I didn't have this kind of experience as a game artist but as a graphic designer. As an artist in general, I think you have this kind of experience. My friends also had this kind of experience. So I didn't have these kinds of things because nobody wanted to hire me at first. [Laughs] So phew. [Laughter] But I heard this, "You're not good enough." [Laughs]
Chris Sean: I think everyone goes through that phase unless you go to a really expensive college or something. I went through that. A lot of developers I know went through that. And for me, I worked for a company that underpaid me for two years in a state that is probably the most expensive state to live in in the United States, and they underpaid me. I would ask for a raise every single month, and they promised, and they never gave it to me. And so for two years, I made it a goal to become a better developer. And the only time they were willing to give me a raise is when I got a job offer at a bigger company, which is so funny. That's the only time. And then they were willing to give me a better raise than what the new company was going to pay me. And I just said, "No, you didn't value me, and you're taking advantage of me. I'm not staying here. No way." [Laughter] And what's funny is that when that company laid me off, the first company I quit, they found out that I got laid off, and they offered to pay me even more to come back.
Chris Sean: I came back for four months and then I quit. And now I'm at the job I'm at now. [Laughter] And they pay a lot more than them, and they pay well. And I'm saying this because a lot of people go through that, and there will be companies that take advantage as a new aspiring developer or game artists, whatever you're going into. I think it sucks, but sometimes you have to suck it up for just a short while, but man, when you get that experience, it changes things.
Aline: Yes. Totally agree. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: I'm not saying you're leaving Voodoo, but I mean no one stays at a company forever, some people do. So do you think now that you have experience, in the future, if ever something was to happen, do you think it will be easier for you to get a job?
Aline: Yes, I think so because Voodoo gave me the opportunity to shine more because I'm really happy with my job. I feel like now I can do almost everything because people trusted me at first during a time when I felt not confident with myself, but people saw a star in me and the potential in me. And they said, "Yeah, you can have this chance. It will be really cool to work for us." It's a long journey I guess. [Laughs]
Chris Sean: How many years have you been in the industry, and how long did it take you to get into the industry?
Aline: I've been working for four years and a half now. And I started to work on the Brakes Are For Losers after my studies, but it wasn't paid. So I would say it took me two years and a half to have a paid job.
Chris Sean: Wow. So two years and a half. And then how long have you been in the industry, again? You said one year and a half?
Aline: I've been in the industry for four years and a half now.
Chris Sean: Okay. Four and a half years. Wow. So it's pretty much been a six-year or a seven-year journey.
Chris Sean: Wow. Was it worth it taking two years and a half to get to the industry?
Aline: Yes, definitely. Really definitely because now I feel I'm not the same person that I was a year ago.
Chris Sean: How are you not the same person? What do you mean by that?
Aline: Before I joined Voodoo, I felt I was not confident enough to do my job properly because I still had this strong imposter syndrome inside me. But since I started with Voodoo, my lead trusts me a lot. They give me lots of good feedbacks all the time like, "Yes, you are good enough. You can do it. And we trust you. And if you need to work on a task, we know for sure that it will be done at the end of the week." And for me, just having the trust of my colleagues is super important for me, and it helps me a lot to value better who I am as a game artist.
Chris Sean: That was awesome. I think trust is the most important part.
Chris Sean: That's what I love about what I do now where I work here at New Relic. That's what's amazing about the team is that there's so much trust, and that's honestly not normal. It should be, but after all the companies I worked at a lot of people feel like they can't trust many people or that's not as normal as it should be. And so I'm honestly really happy to hear that, Aline, the fact that you work for Voodoo. So usually the word Voodoo sounds very scary.
Chris Sean: Voodoo sounds like a great company to work for. It is amazing. So I know we're about to end the hour here. And my final question for you is, so what is your plan from here on now? What is it that you want to do, or what are you doing now?
Aline: What I want to do is just improve my skills in 2D and 3D and just continue to do my job like I'm doing right now because we are working on an awesome game, and I'm super proud to be part of it because my colleagues trust me a lot about the creative aspects of the game. It's really cool to just have this trust, and I'm feeling more confident to do more 2D and 3D art in my spare time.
Chris Sean: Awesome. And I lied. I'm sorry. I'm a liar. I have one more question.
Aline: What? [Laughs]
Chris Sean: You sound like a really fun person, to be honest. If I was to ever go to Berlin -- I really want to travel the world, honestly. I would love to hang out with you.
Aline: [Laughs] Yes!
Chris Sean: My last question is this, what is your message to aspiring game artists developers out there? Because it is hard to get into this industry, it is not easy. What is your message to them?
Aline: Don't give up. Don't do that. Don't give up, just continue to believe in your dreams. It seems to be a little bit random to say that but you really need to follow your dreams. If you think that you belong to this industry, just follow this, it's really important to not give up. And sometimes you have to go through a lot until you get a job, but it's really important to trust in yourself and to trust in your qualities and abilities to get the job done.
Chris Sean: How many times did you think of giving up?
Aline: [Laughs] I can't even count now. But every time I was like, yes, I guess I'm going to give up because it's too hard, and I'm just exhausted. And now I have lots of white hair, and it's because of this period [Laughter] because it was hard, but now I'm just so happy. And yes, I would say to the people who want to join this game industry is to fight for it because if you think you belong to it, do it, just do it.
Chris Sean: It's not supposed to be easy, and I'm really happy to hear that you didn't give up. Honestly, I don't say this often, I really don't, but your story is really inspirational.
Aline: Thank you.
Chris Sean: I don't think I've ever told this to anyone. That is actually the first time, and I'm being honest. And I've interviewed a lot of people.
Chris Sean: Your story is very inspirational, and I'm so thankful. By the way, I added you on Instagram and Twitter, I followed you, please follow me back.
Chris Sean: I would love to speak to you again, honestly, just as a friend. Your story is inspirational, and I really hope that this will help many other developers, aspiring, current developers push towards really what they want to do because that's not normal to do what you love for a living. So I'm very happy to hear that. So, thank you for joining this podcast, Aline. And before we go ahead and end this podcast right here, where can people find you online? I know where to find you. I Googled you. [Laughter] But just in case people don't know how to use Google and how to Google Aline Krebs, how can they find you? Where can they find you?
Chris Sean: Awesome.
Aline: You can find me everywhere.
Chris Sean: Everywhere.
Aline: Even on another planet I will be there.
Chris Sean: In case anyone's wondering, we'll have your name on the podcast anyway so people can just Google you if they can't find you anywhere, and they better add you and follow you because you're an amazing human being. I'm very thankful that you exist on this planet.
Aline: [Laughs] Thank you.
Chris Sean: Well, thank you for everything, Aline. I will speak to you again.
Aline: Yes. Thank you for inviting me on this podcast. It was super cool.